Using a particular operating system doesn't make you morally superior to anyone else.

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If it's a complicated one then it makes you privileged to be able to learn about it, privileged to understand the technicalities that make it a better option ethically, but you don't get cookies for piety. Flexing like you're better for what you choose as your daily OS just makes you look like a dick.

@sophia Is there a reason why people are listening and reacting to others flexing?

@jeena because people will go at others directly with it. Being told you're wrong, too stupid to use something, ethically bankrupt or whatever can grate if it's something you keep hearing. Particularly if you want to change what you use and struggle. It can create a hostile environment that prevents people from asking for help to do it.

@sophia @jeena Fuck that noise. Everybody should use what works best for them, based on their reasons. And should either help others or get out of the way.

@dgold I like fosstodon. Loads of people from there fall for my awful jokes

@sophia
Argh. That is offensive to me.

If I'm privileged because I use Linux, then a guitarist is privileged because they can play the guitar, or a writer because they can write good books. It took time, sweat, tears, and passion to get good at the things I'm good at. I wasn't born with innate knowledge of vim commands.

If you want to say I'm privileged because I could learn computers instead of dying in a war, then sure. But all of us are, so I say the term is meaningless.

@TheCraiggers Yes, they are. They're privileged to have the physical and mental capacity to do so. It's not to say it wasn't difficult or they didn't have to work at it.
Someone deaf or with disability affecting their hands for example would not have that same ability, that privilege.

We are all advantaged and disadvantaged in different ways. Not everyone has the time to or concentration to learn how to use a new OS. With my disabilities as they are now I'd struggle.

@sophia
As you say, we're all advantaged and disadvantaged in our own ways. Obviously, not all of these balance out for everybody, and some people have it harder.

That said, I'm still not sure why people feel the need to point out this fact. What change are they hoping to see? Because from my (potentially uneducated) viewpoint, it just seems like they're hoping I feel bad after the conversation, or that I validate their excuse for not doing something, which helps nobody.

@TheCraiggers People are consistently made to feel bad for their tech choices while at these disadvantages, as others flex like their own make them better and judge those on others.
Why do people need to be judgemental about it when it makes others feel bad? The only potential intention is that plus a need to feel superior about it, for what purpose? It doesn't exactly turn people away from what they're using.

@sophia
I think I agree with you, although I wonder- You yourself have tooted things like "BTW, I use Arch!" Why is that?

I remember back in the 80's where kids (myself included, I won't lie) would deride others for their choice in video game consoles. Today, people align with all sorts of things- OS's, video game platforms, or specific brands like Apple or Nike. For better or worse, we seem to be social creatures that enjoy being a part of, and exuding others from, groups.

@TheCraiggers It's a long running joke. I use debian mostly, only installed arch in order to obnoxiously say it repeatedly like a lot of arch users I know do unironically.

Seeing it with all parts of tech still. Phone choice, social media choice, even on here with pleroma vs Mastodon. It's unfortunate because there's always groups at the bottom of the pile, It rarely seems to be balanced

@sophia
You probably already know where I'm going with this, but would you be interested to know that I feel bad every time that Arch meme is spoken? Every time it just reminds me that I'm part of a group that is derided because of the actions of an outspoken minority. I just want to use my computer how I want in peace, while occasionally making something useful for, or helping, others.

Personally, I view this as something similar to your original toot, which is interesting.

@TheCraiggers if you're not one of the people the meme is deriding then it's not about you. Everyone can tell a techbro arch user from someone just using an OS.

The meme is there because that segment exists and those who are the target of it are other os users. Whether you like it or not they exist within that community. Since it comes from a position of intellectual superiority it's a difference of punching up, not down. That's a big difference.

@sophia
But yet it is about me. Such is the power of stereotypes. They're inclusive statements, and you feel part of that group (and therefore guilty) by association by default. I now have to prove innocence, instead of the other way around. Negative experiences all around.

Another example. That meme is literally about how Arch users can't help to announce to the world what OS they use. No matter how I word it, I can't mention I use Arch without being included in that group.

@TheCraiggers but it's your choice to be a part of that community. You could vocally oppose the kind of stereotypes there by hitting back at the users who act superior as a result of their use of it, rather than at those decrying it from beneath their superior BS on the outside. It might not be all users but it's more than enough.

If you feel guilty help to change it. Telling people not to punch up is just silencing dissent of a known common issue.

@sophia
I didn't join a community, I installed an OS. I feel this is more akin to getting shot at because I happen to be wearing gang colors. I'm not a part of the gang, you see?

Likewise, I view those who do the things you were originally upset about *and* those that attempt to fix it by just throwing memes around as trolls. For that reason, I do my best to fix it by not feeding them. Users violating community rules on a forum is one thing- policing the world is another.

@TheCraiggers Then once again, it's not about you? This is getting very much into 'not all men' territory, and making comparisons to gang related shootings because you feel bad about a meme because of your OS choice is distasteful at best.

Making a joke out of people being dicks and flexing over the choice of software they use to imply they're better than others is not the same as making a joke of the people being dicks.

@sophia
*Sigh* We're beginning to cycle, and this isn't the best place to hold a debate anyway. I think we can both agree that the world could use more empathy in it, and I'll just leave it at that. Thank you for the discussion.

@TheCraiggers @sophia it’s ok and valid to have opinions. If you believe something is unethical, you’re valid for expressing that, even shaming people to try and discourage their unethical behavior or complicity. If you believe poorly secured or unfree operating systems are unethical, then its reasonable to believe that the general practice of teasing people for it is beneficial by building a culture that discourages harmful practices or normalizing their exploitation

@sophia
By the way, I am enjoying this conversation quite a bit. Thank you for indulging me.

@sophia you know what, I'm thinking about this and you're right, I've been being kind of a bitch about this

if anything I should be happy that windows and Ubuntu provide such easy ways for ANYONE to get on a computer, especially windows with its accessibility features right out of the box

man, I've been ridiculous about this

@applebaps I used to be like it with this stuff too tbh, esp since I ran in Extremely Online linux circles. The difficulty I see some people have even use a computer, it makes me feel grateful for being in the position I am.
Windows really is the best choice for a lot of people, and though Ubuntu is a lot more friendly than most it doesn't compete with that, and many simply can't go beyond it

@sophia exactly. and like, if you don't have a working computer these days you're literally locked out of society

my gatekeeping days are done. thanks

@sophia pssh nah, thank you for saying it! I needed to hear it put like you did

@applebaps @sophia So glad I descended this particular sub thread to see these interactions. :)

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