The thing about 'not all men' is it's something men bark at people who are lashing out at the group that's hurting them. Trying to separate themselves and remove any affiliation.
All it does is tell those people to shut up while doing nothing to change the structures that allow toxic masculinity to continue that original victimisation. Step in and tell fellow men to stop, that it's not ok, instead of telling people, especially women, you're not like the others so how dare we get angry about it.
If I'm annoyed because of the ill behaviour of numerous men in a way that's something I have been subjected to for years upon years, you going 'well that's unfair, I'M not like that' does nothing, you've just made it about you when, if you're not like that, it's not about you in the first place.
It's like insisting you get a cookie for not being a dickhead.
@sophia reminds me of r/niceguys
@sophia definitely r/niceguys :P
(I'd still like a cookie though... Okay nevermind)
@sophia I'm not at all surprised you posted to call this out and then someone immediately went and did it anyway
@flussence the predictably is borderline hilarious
Officially in love with this post. You have absolutely nailed jt here.
@AudreyJune it annoys me so much. The amount of harassment men dish out, around other men, and no one steps in. No one has a word with a mate going too far, it's always excuses and it's 'oh he's just a bit forward' but you make a remark about men? Boy are they there to make sure you know they're innocent 😬
@AudreyJune also the not all men reply was fucking delicious 🙃
@ScriptFanix what the absolute fuck is wrong with you
Every man profits from institutionalized sexism in one way or another, saying "notallmen" really just shows how little they understand about this society - and how badly they want to pretend their privilege doesn't exist so they don't have to face the fact that they are part of the problem.
I might just boost this every day.
How to trans men fit into this tho? Frequently they are the same targets and they don't magically start benefiting from the same system as cis men when they aren't seen by that system as "real men"
@sophia I won't make friends on this, but since you bring the topic, and say « you », I'll consider I can mansp… bring my point of view : can you consider that (a part of) those 'not-all-men' are poping, because they've been bullied themselve (or still are) by the very same dickheads ? And understand how being associated with its own oppressor can hurt ?
Man life is like « oppress » or « be oppressed » (and, yes, often both).
@Lanza as someone else being oppressed by them, I shouldn't have to take stock of every individuals circumstances in order to express my pain at being oppressed by a socially privileged group.
I'm white, a lot of friends who aren't express similar sentiments about white people. I've been hurt by white people too, but that doesn't make it their responsibility to coddle me over it.
@sophia I'll do as if I understood "coddle" correctly.
I really understand your point. I do not say they're right. I try to explain why they behave this way. (And why you won't get rid of them, they're legion…)
Thing is, "white" is not the main differenciating trait of people who hurts you, while they are for your non-white friends. You can easily differentiate from them.
«Man» is the main trait of harassed men's opressor. It's not "women", it's white fuck* cishet men. The very same as yours.
@sophia this one went to hell... good lord
@realtoddhoward one guy gave a full THREE POST not all men
I stg what the fuck
@sophia saying anything negative about a cishet white man is like being responsible for the first scar a kid gets
@realtoddhoward it literally says in the post 'if you don't do it then it isn't about you' and so HMMMM yeah not looking great pals
@sophia lol this one wasn't even a fish hook
everything you said is all 100% correct and beautifully articulated ♥️
@kew I knew it was gonna happen the second I posted lmao
Thank you! It's a major bugbear of mine
@sophia I’m laughing because of all the white dudes coming into this post to specifically do what you clearly expressed you did not like and then complain about the response they get.
The gross insecurity they are trying to disguise with bravado and humor is both hilarious and sad.
@Are0h I like how they seem to talk as though I haven't heard their points 20 times over, too
@sophia Ha, I'm never not amused by how novel they believe themselves to be.
@Are0h the literal 'not all men' was fucking hilarious tho, fair play
@sophia It's gotta be intentional, which makes it worse in a lot of ways, but that's why it's funny. It's all they have.
@sophia men have never learned to bow out gracefully
hardly anyone handles being wrong well, but men… seem, special.
@sophia But seriously, I've not seen this explained more succinctly before and I'm glad that I have something to refer back to now if I ever forget why the "not all x" is not okay or if I have to point it out to someone
@brandon see and this is why you put up with the rest of my toots
@sophia shush you :P
@sophia I agree with your call to arms against toxic masculinity. Everyone should fight against it wherever encountered.
I want to highlight one point though:
If we're saying "it's the group - men in general - that are doing this" we're using the same argument as toxic men, namely that this behavior is just what men do/defines men. This is certainly wrong in my bubble, I hope it's wrong in yours as well.
I think a better argument would be to not claim it's the group of men in general, but a minority within that group. This has two benefits in my eyes. 1/3
@sophia a) We don't have to argue with men who aren't toxic and who feel themselves unjustly accused. This saves everyone's energy and makes it easier to get them on board instead of motivating them to join the other side or stay on the sidelines. 2/3
@sophia b) It doesn't play into the argument of toxic men. With non-toxic men on board it becomes very apparent very quickly, that this behavior is inconsiderate, not as it should be and frowned upon by both genders.
Turning this into a battle between genders is a bad idea. 3/3
If this is earnest, I don’t believe you when you say that none of your friends have bad behavior wrt women. They just don’t necessarily tell you about it, and you probably don’t notice much of it either.
@AudreyJune I chose my friends wisely. I know people who have bad behavior towards women (and bad attitudes towards women in their absence). Those people get to hear appropriate comments from me on the occasion.
I never said this wasn't occurring. In fact, I myself have been on the receiving end of toxic masculinity in my earlier years. Turns out, males not conforming to other's ideas of what a man should be, suffer under that stereotype as well.
What I said was: It's hopefully not the majority of men in your environment. There is a cultural and generational element to this I guess. YMMV
Awful huh? So, do you care to give me any arguments as to why you think my ideas are so worthless?
No terfs, no tories, no cops, no nazis. SWERFs fuck off.